Brian Tankersley, CPA, and Randy Johnston, discuss the accounting profession’s talent shortage, and the ways firms and state societies are trying to remedy the challenges. Watch the video, listen to the audio, or read the transcript.
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Transcript (Note: There may be typos due to automated transcription errors.)
SPEAKERS
Randy Johnston, Brian F. Tankersley, CPA.CITP, CGMA
Brian F. Tankersley, CPA.CITP, CGMA 00:00
Randy, welcome to the accounting Technology Lab sponsored by CPA practice advisor, with your hosts, Randy Johnston and Brian Tankersley,
Randy Johnston 00:11
welcome to the accounting Technology Lab. I’m your host. Randy Johnston, with co host Brian Tankersley and we want to talk today about the talent shortages and the accounting pipeline. We’re really doing this in the context of the CPA practice, advisors, accounting leaders, Think Tank symposium that Brian and I could attend on June 8 here in 2025 now we were fortunate, because there were a lot of young thought leaders in the room. 40 under 40 were all invited, and many other thought leaders who have been in the profession for some time were also invited, so we could mix and share ideas. And one section that we handled in content was the idea behind recruiting personnel. Now we know the problem is actually improving, and we know that there are more students going into a college trying to get degrees, but we also know the numbers still are unfavorable. However, we were fortunate enough also last night to be invited to the AICPA thought leader dinner and reception, and I thought it was very fascinating that, you know, Mark Koziol, the new president, said, look, there’s 600,000 CPA members in the AICPA. If only half encouraged one person to become a CPA, that would be 300,000 and it would go a long way in fixing the pipeline problem in the United States. All kind of interesting thoughts, as far as I was concerned, but we know that the amount of labor needed is likely to drop because of AI. And you can listen to our other session on AI from this same event, the think tank symposium, but we also suspect that there will be some onshoring of labor, and one of the comments that was made during this session was that there might be a trend if allowed to take some of the offshore labor that’s being used and bring them in as US citizens, and they would be onshore, which was kind of an interesting solution to the problem. So again, in this episode, we’re not really trying to say here’s how you should solve this problem, because you could do outsource labor and you could use more AI and automation, but we’re really trying to convey things that you wouldn’t have other seen behind the closed door meeting, we do have to follow chatham’s rules on this, where we can’t really attribute anything to any person without their permission. But Brian and I wanted to give you an idea of what was being said about this issue of the pipeline of talent in people. So, Brian, I don’t think this is rocket science, but I’d like to hear your one or two or three things that you thought you learned, and I’ll do the same thing.
Brian F. Tankersley, CPA.CITP, CGMA 03:12
Well, first off, let me, let me, before I jump into the three, let me say here that one of the learnings that I’ve had simultaneously by reading, you know, Dan hood at accounting today, and you know, Isaac and CPA practice advisor and other folks like that, is that it appears that private equity is pushing more and more of this work offshore. And you know, with these private equity roll ups, we have a lot of changes taking place. And, you know, it’s, it’s really hand in glove, how, how, how that affects talent. Because the the the thing that we’ve all, that we all looked for in the accounting profession, was we’re going to join this firm, we’re going to we’re going to work very hard, we’re going to be successful. They’re going to teach us the ropes, and then we’re going to be a partner in this accounting we’re going to be partners in this accounting firm, and then we’re going to be we’re going to have a seat at the table on decisions, on what’s going on and everything else. And we’re going to also make a lot of money and and that that still exists, but the model is definitely changing because of private equity, and so we have to acknowledge that this alternative practice structure that we’re that we’re going into now is going to change things up. But what I what I think generally, is that there is a lot of interest in accounting, there’s not a lot of understanding of it, you know. And I will say that accounting is, you know, accounting is, is very there are parts of it, you know, the Constitution level, things, you know, assets plus liabilities equals equity, debit debits equal credits, those kinds of things. Things. I don’t know why, but I have, I have a lot of friends that teach principles of accounting, and I will just say that for some reason that is not resonating very well with some of the folks you know, again, with with some of the some of the students. And so that’s coming along. Now, the other thing Do we have to remember here is that, as a profession, we like to complain. Okay, we, we, we like to whine about things sometimes. And, you know, I think we do an excessive amount of whining about the amount of time we have to work during busy season, trying to out victim the other the other person said, oh, yeah, well, I charged 100 hours for three weeks in a row. You know, come on. I mean, you know, there’s, there’s, there is a lot of drudgery in this. But every profession has periods when you have to work exceptionally hard if you want to be successful. And if you don’t want to be successful and you want a 40 hour job, those are abundant. You can go get those all over the place. Now, they may not make what you like, but you can get a 40 hour a week job. But I think it’s, I think generally, it’s a matter of, you know, I think accounting does have an image problem, and I think we have to look in the mirror and realize that our own complaining about things, and the, you know, the the culture we have that permits us to whine at the level that we do about difficult things like busy season. And I’m not trying to say that it’s not very difficult, okay, but you know, one of the things you’ve actually told me, during your current adversity, you know, during your adversity, Randy, is that, well, I could feel sorry for myself, but what good would that do about anything? Okay, and and I think it’s, I think it’s important that we get our culture right. And I think the talent problem, in many ways, is a direct result of our self indulgent whining about the difficulty of practice and US allowing allowing ourselves to be driven beyond the point of reasonableness in the search of the almighty dollar during compressed parts of the year. And so I think, I think generally, you know, and I think this came out in Jennifer Lee Wilson and her, her panel, her, her, her blue ribbon panels, group on, on the profession. But I think, I think it’s important that we also understand that we don’t talk about the things that are glorious about this profession. You know, the sense of satisfaction we get when something is completed successfully. The you know, the the sense of accomplishment you get when somebody has a significant liquidity event, the you know, the satisfaction we get when we execute a tax strategy that results in somebody saving, you know, 678, figures worth of worth of dollars, you know, I think it’s, I think it’s very important that we understand that when we complain about the hours, we Can’t always talk about the wins. And I think we have to balance that so that people understand that this you’re not just signing up to be, you know, to be, to be Brian the calculator operator. Okay, there is much more. And again, the people is, the is the most important part of this. And I think if we, if we back up here and and we can, we can try to tell a better story about what accounting is, I think you’ll see more, more and more people be interested in
Randy Johnston 08:55
it well. So you really got to what was my first point, because from the National Pipeline advisory report, there were several conclusions, and two of the topics that our groups discussed at great length was how our profession is not telling a very good story. And you know, that was really about the things that you just talked about, and the question they ask, which I thought was fascinating when we went around the room, is, how am I telling the story? And I realized I don’t tell that story very well. And everybody at our table, I believe, who were all well known professionals, didn’t tell the story very well. And I could hear the table to our left and the table to our right, also saying the same things. And you know, if you get nothing else out of this particular episode, but to be able to tell your story as a practicing professional, why you like it, why it’s a good business to be in, what the rewards are, I think that’s. A key learning of today’s podcast, but there was a few other things that were there. The second major one that we discussed was trying to make the employment experience better. Now you and I, Brian, have talked about that for a good five years. I think one of our earliest podcasts was on client experience, and there are a lot of vendors that are trying to build better client experience. But this is more than just products. It’s it’s about the salaries, it’s about the benefits, it’s about the projects that people can work on, the engagements they’re responsible for. How soon you get people into engagements that are not reconciling a bank statement, you know, things that actually are not running a calculator trying to use your words earlier. Now, there’s a few other findings of the national pipeline report, but I would actually prefer that you, you know, download and read the summaries yourself and make your own conclusions out of it. That’s really key. But also there is a commitment to helping recruitment for the National pipeline report. And if you’ve not searched out and made that type of commitment, I think that’s another thing that’s really critical here. You know, the main thing that I’m concerned for is I want new generations of accountants to have the same relational values that accountants have had for decades. And I don’t value transactional relationships as much, although that’s the popular thing today. And again, I’m not trying to tell you how to live your life. I’m just saying I understand the value of relationships. I think many of you as listeners understand the value of relationships. And as you all know, relationships take work, and you know you can make a transaction, but you don’t have a relationship in most of those cases. And I think most practitioners that I know that are good are relational people.
Brian F. Tankersley, CPA.CITP, CGMA 12:10
Yeah, I just, I don’t think you can, I don’t think you can make, you know, I think if, I think if you’re selling a transaction, if you’re selling a tax return, rather than you’re selling trust and credibility, and it’s going to be okay. And this is the right answer, you know, if you’re not, if you’re selling, if you’re selling that basic service and not selling the the experience of it, and the, you know, the the it’s going to be okay, part of it, I think, I think you’re missing the boat here. But it’s a, you know, we have an interesting profession. It is somewhat abstract. It’s, it’s different than other things. But, you know, we’re really headed, I think, in many ways, to a world where we have, where we are all almost exclusively digital plumbers, and we’re troubleshooting when things go wrong, just like a plumber does. You know, Randy just had a pipe burst at his home, and he walked into his home and there was water streaming out of the ceiling, and he said, Well, I’ve got a burst pipe, and now I have to take action based on this. And I think in many ways, when, when technology takes over these things, our jobs are going to be different, just like it’s different than me being a calculator operator back in the early 90s. You know, the job changes, but we’re still troubleshooting things and figuring things out. You know, I will say that this last weekend, my lawn mower broke down. Okay, so I have a lawn mower I used to mow one of my bee yards, and it’s a push and so it’s pushed mower. I looked at it, and I saw fuel dripping out of it, and I said, Oh, it’s probably the fuel hose. It’s the fuel hose from the from the gas tank is leaking. And I I looked at it and replaced it. And then I thought back to the fact that my father, when I worked on the law, when he had to work on the lawnmower, he had me sit and help, help hand him tools, so that he so that I could learn from him, seeing the seeing the repairs being made and under and I could ask him questions about, How does this work, you know. And he could say things like, well, to make an engine work, you have to have air, you have to have fuel, and you have to have spark, and if you don’t have any one of those, it’s not going to work. We have to do the same thing with our staff people, and bring them along in those more difficult situations, and let them watch us work so that they you know, and we have to narrate what we’re doing, so that they can learn, just like I did that. What I needed to do as soon as I saw it, I said, Oh, yeah, I need to load this up. I need to go to the auto parts store. I need, I need to get some, some, you know, chemical, some, some, you know, rubber, or some gasoline grade hose. Or at the auto parts store and a couple of hose clamps, and I need to replace this hose. And I replaced and guess what? It worked. Okay, Dad’s teaching worked. And that’s the thing that I think we’ve got to we’ve got to do is we’ve got to allow those younger staff to be in the room when the hard decisions are made, and to be in the room when conflict occurs, so they understand how to handle and navigate these very personal, very sensitive, financial conversations that we have, and we need to make them feel like they’re an essential part of the team, so that when they’re out on their own, they will feel confident doing that, and so that they know that, so they know that they’re really learning the skills they need to move to the next level and to and to take their career to where it needs to go, rather than just sitting around bellyaching about, well, I had to work, you know, 75 hours this week. Well, life’s hard get help. You know, it happens sometimes, okay, but what you miss the fact that and I went and saw two Broadway shows, and I took my family to New York City for three days, and had a great experience. You know, I think we have to balance it all out here and and remind ourselves that this story’s out here and we have to, we have to share the we have to do. You know, I thought I was, I was not excited about holding the screwdrivers and getting tools like that for that. But now that, now, now that he’s gone, I realized he taught me how to fix small engines, and that’s cool and and I think we have to take the same approach here, out of love for our staff, to teach them how to how to deal with these difficult situations, and to show them the alternatives for approach, so that they Don’t feel like, you know, so that they feel like, that they’re really getting value out of it, because there is value to be shared and and, you know, I think about how you’ve mentored me and brought me along a lot of places I wouldn’t have gone, and it’s helped me immensely in my development. And I think that the more we do this, the more we narrate these things that we could get done faster if we just did them by ourselves and shut up. But if we would take a take an interest in developing our staff, I think there would be, I think a lot of this talent problem would disappear in the long term. So I
Randy Johnston 17:40
appreciate Brian the mention on the mentor. I’ve mentored many people, and happy to do that for you and others as I think about it. And if a second takeaway for you today is this idea that really one of your jobs is to mentor others in life and all the years that we’ve known each other, I guess I’d never heard your dad mower repair story. Now think about that, friends, because Brian and I have known each other 20 years and
Brian F. Tankersley, CPA.CITP, CGMA 18:07
Randy, it just happened last week. Well,
Randy Johnston 18:09
I understand that, but I mean the bad teaching you happened decades ago, I suspect. But what listeners don’t know is, you know, I was raised in a neighborhood where my grandfather taught me to repair Briggs and Stratton and Clinton engines on Moors, and I know the difference. And I can repair a Model T because of him, but I can do electrical because of my neighbor to the south, who is in the Navy. And I can do architecture and Rick Blaine because of my neighbor to the north, and I can do carpentry because of another neighbor slightly to the north. And so I learned how to do all those things by tagging along watching. And they’d say, Here, take this hammer, and here’s how you drive a nail properly. And that’s what we’re going to have to do, because when AI takes over jobs like tax prep, how do we teach how to hold the hammer and so forth? It’s going to be a real deal. Now, two comments that I’ll
Brian F. Tankersley, CPA.CITP, CGMA 19:00
make, but AI, but like, the like, the like, the apprentice AI is going to blow it sometimes, on, on things, and we will still have to fix it. Okay? So the job is still there, you know? It’s just going to be different, and the tools are going to be different. So
Randy Johnston 19:19
two other learnings for me in these days, and we really heard it from Mark Koziol again last night, is that because of the alternative business structures, and it’s been done for 25 years. 30 years actually started in 1995 that CPA are frequently not listing their credentials for liability mitigation, and there’s going to be a movement around that. And at this point, because of the time we recorded this session, there were 14 states that now have an alternative pathway to becoming certified, and portability is going to become a bit more of an issue, as we would see it. But. We’re going to have to continue to work with our team to improve the value of the credentials and the value of accounting to the clients, because they don’t even sometimes know how to ask for the services that they need. And you have to help them many times, get themselves out of places where they’ve created their own problems, but your people have to have enough experience that they also can do those jobs. In other words, this isn’t individual sport. This is a team sport. So we think the team is always stronger. So Brian, any other closing thoughts?
Brian F. Tankersley, CPA.CITP, CGMA 20:43
I think we need to, I think we need to generally work on the story we the story we tell about what we do about about the profession, and we need to actively, actively spend time with our junior staff people and make them feel heard and help them understand what’s going through our head when we’re dealing with those incredibly difficult situations. And and help them, help them, help bring them along, through, through, you know, and develop. Because that’s the you know, that’s the thing that I think is is most rewarding, you know, I look at, I look at the things I’ve taught my own son, and the things I’ve taught staff, people that I’ve worked with over the years, and the, you know, I think, I think there’s a there’s its own reward when you, when you help somebody achieve their potential. And I think we have to work harder at that, and stop chasing life six minutes, 15 minutes at a time. We have to invest in our people, and that means we’re gonna have to spend time with them. That means it’s gonna take longer to do things, because we’re explaining what the heck’s going on, but we are building skills that you know, again, like my fixing the lawnmower. You know, 50 years later, here it is okay, but and we may never see that come directly out, but I think it’s important that we, that we aggressively teach our team how we would want things to be handled and and spend time with them and try to help them be the best they can be. Maybe some of maybe, maybe we teach them skills that they never use on our behalf. But you know somebody invested in you beyond what what they had to in order to make you the person you are today. And I think we all have a role in paying that debt forward.
Randy Johnston 22:48
Well, it is clear that we value you individually as a listener, your contributions to the accounting profession and the values that you contribute to society as a whole. We understand it. I hope we’ve helped you think it through a little better too. We’ll see you in another technology lab. Good day.
Brian F. Tankersley, CPA.CITP, CGMA 23:08 Thank you for sharing your time with us. We’ll be back next Saturday with a new episode of the technology lab from CPA practice advisor. Have a great week.
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